International Grad Student Life, Tokenism, and Becoming a Professor | Elnaz Parviz, PhD

Today I interview Dr. Elnaz "Ellie" Parviz, an assistant professor of communication studies. We talk about her journey from international student to professor, what it was like being on the job market, her experiences with tokenism, and what grad students (particularly international grad students) should do to be competitive for academic jobs.

LINKS

Follow Ellie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.elnaz.parviz/ 

Connect with Ellie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elnazellieparviz/ 

TRANSCRIPT

Matt: Ellie, it is great to talk with you today. Introducing Dr. Elnaz Parviz. Thank you so much for coming on the show and chatting with me. 

Matt: If you could just briefly introduce yourself, who you are, what you do. And where folks can find you online.  

Ellie: Yeah, thank you for having me on this podcast. I'm excited to be here and to have this opportunity to talk about some of my experiences. I'm Elnaz Parviz. I go by Ellie. I have a PhD in communication studies. 

Ellie: Currently, I have an instructor of communication tenure track position at a college in the Northwest. And I would love to connect with everyone on Instagram and on LinkedIn.  

Matt: Instagram and LinkedIn, and I will I already follow you on Instagram and I will find you on LinkedIn and I will have links to both of those places in the description of this episode. 

Matt: Folks want to scroll down and click on those. Ellie, let's start from the beginning. What drew you to grad school?  

Ellie: So in 2014 my husband and I moved to the U. S. specifically to go to grad school. So we're both international students. He is in engineering field. I'm a social scientist. So our purpose, and we had a gap since we did our undergrads and he did his master's degree back home. 

Ellie: There was a gap when we were working back home and then we moved here in order to do a graduate degree. For me, specifically, the reason was that I I taught English as a second language back home, and I wanted teaching to be my main job for the rest of my life. But then everything gets more competitive every year, everywhere in the world. 

Ellie: If you don't have those graduate degrees and you want to remain a teacher, you're not very competitive in the job market. So I needed a graduate degree to remain competitive, and I didn't want to remain an English teacher in the United States because English is not my first language, so I thought that put me at a disadvantage. 

Ellie: So I wanted to study something that was similar enough for me to be able to make progress in, so I decided to study communication studies. Absolutely.  

Matt: That's awesome. And so what was the process like of moving here and becoming a grad student and getting acclimated and all of that?  

Ellie: So for both of us, it was a little different. 

Ellie: He got his admission when we were back home into a PhD program for aerospace engineering. I moved here and then applied to do my master's in communication studies. In the Midwest. So we, what we needed were two certificates. One to prove that we were compatible at English. And also G, GRE. 

Ellie: That everybody needs that, I think. Yeah. Regardless of their nationality. So we needed those. Something that international students also need is proof that they can pay for their lives here if they can't get any funding. So we had to bring all of those financial proofs so that was the part of actually getting into a program. 

Ellie: When it comes to getting assistantships, it can be more difficult when you're not here in the U. S. Because programs they need to know who they're giving assistantships to and whether those people will be able to do the job, whether it's a teaching assistantship or a graduate research assistantship. 

Ellie: For me, it was an advantage because I was here. So I was able to get an assistantship three months into the program, which really helped financially and also helped acclimate me into the. The professional world here. For graduate students, as it was for the both of us you're navigating a new education system, a new cultural system, and a new network. 

Ellie: And that is not easy, because graduate school is difficult for even students who are from the country where they're doing the degree. But it's even more difficult for internationals because of those three reasons. When you think about the education system, a lot of international students may come from education systems that did not train them for this system. 

Ellie: Let's say everything being in English the way that you have to use those references, APA. So I had no idea what APA was until the day I started my master's program. And there isn't specific training for master. degree students to, not in every university, there isn't any training program to teach them. 

Ellie: Here is how you format. Here is what you do. Some programs may include professional days and trainings, like it, they did in my PhD program, but not in my master's program. So that put me at a disadvantage because there were a lot of details that my classmates knew that I didn't. So I had to spend two or three times as much time. 

Ellie: Doing the assignments, figuring out how everything needed to look like in order to meet the requirements. Yeah.  

Matt: Were there any resources or any like tools that helped? That acclimation process or the extra work that you had to do.  

Ellie: So there were some sites that were introduced to us the Purdue website for all of those APA resources. 

Ellie: That was something that I kept going back to when I was doing my MA. And that really helped. Then in my PhD program, we had professional days, I think once a month when we could work on, so we brainstormed and we came up with topics that we needed to talk about. And some resources, some like professionals came to help us navigate any of the sites or resources that were available. 

Ellie: But the problem with that is as an international student, like I said, it's a new cultural system as well. So not all of us are comfortable speaking up when we don't know something. That imposter syndrome that everybody may face is a little, maybe bigger for international students because you're not only In a program that is at a higher level, but also you're not even in your own environment, you're in a different environment, you're sitting by people who got their education here in the system their entire life. 

Ellie: Yeah. So that thought is with you every second of every day that maybe I shouldn't even be here because I don't know any of these things and I'm not brave enough or I'm not comfortable enough to speak up and say that I don't know these things. So you navigate a part of those, but a part of them, maybe you never ask. 

Ellie: And the institutions don't, they don't know what you don't know. Also, you don't know what you don't know in the beginning. So putting that responsibility on international students to. Go ask for what they need or figure out what they need. It's a little bit of too much responsibility because institutions, they bring in international students. 

Ellie: I think it's their job to Do enough research and collect enough data to know what international students need and provide those resources. Yeah. Yeah, man.  

Matt: So the things that you're saying are really deepening. I guess, my view of the different challenges that international students face. When I was a grad student, the only thing that I really, whenever I would work with some of the international students in my lab, the only thing that I ever really registered was the language difference. 

Matt: Having to speak in a second language and also having to write like professional academic style writing in a second language. The idea of doing that exhausted me. And my only frame of reference was Spanish, which I took a couple years in high school and then used here and there. And I could never write a paper in Spanish. 

Matt: But it makes so much sense that there's so many more layers than that. Like the culture and then maybe not feeling comfortable speaking up and asking for the resources and not knowing what you don't know. That makes so much sense to me. What would you say to any international grad student listeners right now who maybe aren't speaking up or need something or don't know what they don't know? 

Ellie: So one strategy that really helped me and I had to use that strategy Is that a lot of international students, they build a network within their own communities. So a lot of them, because it's easier to speak in your own language or speak to people who have very similar shared experiences with you. 

Ellie: So they build networks with people from their own country. And while that is really helpful because of those shared experiences, if you don't emerge yourself in the host community, if you don't talk to the people from the host, and it's not easy, they don't always let you in. Especially if you if speaking English is not very comfortable for you or is not very easy for others to understand when you speak it, they may not let you in, which is the sad part of building a network that includes people from the host community. 

Ellie: Unless you speak to people who grew up in this education system and you go to study groups with them, work with them, you're not going to know what skills they have and what kind of training they receive that you don't. Have all of those skills. So you don't know what to go look for or what to train yourself at. 

Ellie: I had to emerge myself in the community because in communication studies, there weren't any other Iranians like me. And in the university where I was, there weren't many social scientists who were from Iran. Most people from my country, they study engineering or medical sciences. So there weren't people like me who studied my major. 

Ellie: So I, because I didn't have those shared experiences, I had to work with Americans and it really helped me. And I was lucky because the cohort that I was with, they did let me in and they were inclusive. But I have heard that doesn't happen to everyone, yeah. So working with them made me realize the things that I didn't know. 

Ellie: And we, they helped me with accessing some resources, and I was able to teach myself some of the things that I was missing. So study groups with people from, not from your own background, from other educational backgrounds can really help. Also, universities a lot of times have resources that they don't advertise that much. 

Ellie: So like writing groups, like writing labs all of those can be excellent resources for international students. Again, not everyone is comfortable to go and benefit from those resources because international students may already feel that they are lesser than. Because of the language differences, because of that stronger imposter syndrome. 

Ellie: So going to a writing lab and telling, Hey, I'm a PhD student and I don't know how to write or I don't know how to format this paper. They may not be comfortable with that. And that's a valid feeling. But sometimes you have to put, if you want to succeed, you have to push yourself. You're already here. 

Ellie: You're out of your comfort zone. There are things that you have to do if you want to, be a compatible candidate in the job market, like a competitive candidate. Yeah.  

Matt: Yeah. That phrase, out of your comfort zone, that that I feel like that really epitomizes, at least from my frame of reference, what you're talking about, because not only are you not in your home country, you're in a different culture you're in a really unique part of a different culture. 

Matt: To be able to compete in a crazy competitive academic job market, you have to put yourself further out of your comfort zone. Did you ever feel in your grad experience that you didn't have to live outside your comfort zone regularly? Or was it always that way?  

Ellie: Honestly, it was all, I was always out of my comfort zone because everything you do is in a different language, different system. 

Ellie: So basically who you were and what you knew, I don't want to say it doesn't mean anything here, but it doesn't mean the same thing that it's meant back home. So your identity, your skills, everything that you acquired in your life. They're, they bring a different kind of value. You can't always go back to those experience. 

Ellie: So you're out of your comfort zone. You're rebuilding your identity. You're rebuilding your skills. You are emerging yourself in a new culture, building a network, hopefully with enough people from diverse backgrounds that can help you when you're in the job market. So every step of the way, it is out of your comfort zone. 

Ellie: Yeah. But I do know international students that unfortunately, like I said, they remain within their own communities because it's a lot more comfortable. And I would honestly not recommend that. If the goal is to get a job with your degree in the community where you received that education, I think you should build a larger network that is inclusive of other backgrounds than your own. 

Matt: Yeah, that's, it sounds tough, but it makes sense. In addition to networking with people who are from the host country, what other things did you do that you think helped you get a faculty position after you graduated?  

Ellie: It really depends on the person's personality, but I was comfortable reaching out to different community organizations and getting involved with them. 

Ellie: And through those involvements, I got some experiences that I was able to put on my CV and I was able to promote myself using those connections and experiences. But also, I didn't hold myself back, so if there was an opportunity for me to do any kind of work relevant to what I was hoping to do later. 

Ellie: So if there were any programs when I could be a guest speaker or when I could teach maybe a one hour session, I really reached out and I didn't wait for someone to come after me and ask me to be a part of their program. I went after them and that is what I tell all of my all of the people that I mentor. 

Ellie: You shouldn't wait for people to come after you. If you want something, ask. This is actually the second day that we got here in 2014. I think the second day we went out to an event and someone told me this sentence and I think it's been One of the most valuable lessons in my life, if you want something, ask for it, and it is the same in your academic career. 

Ellie: It's the same in your professional career. If you want something, ask. The worst thing that can happen is that people tell you no, and that's okay. At least you tried. So any small opportunities that you get to add a line to your CV that is relevant to your professional goals. Go after it, even if it's just one hour. 

Ellie: I think that's really helped me.  

Matt: That makes a lot of sense. Were there any experiences that you had as a grad student that stand out to you as foundational to becoming a professor after you graduated?  

Ellie: So I had a TA position the entire time, during my master's degree and PhD, and that really helped because that gave me Six years of teaching experience here in the U. 

Ellie: S. Most of those courses, I was the instructor of record. I think there was only one course where I was not the instructor of record. I was assisting someone. So if people can get any teaching experience, that can really add value to their portfolio if they are looking for an academic job. Then I also got involved in a couple of research projects with professors. 

Ellie: I think that brought a lot of value to my portfolio. And there, I had the opportunity to apply to be the assistant to introductory communication course for a couple of years. And that was more of an administrative job. I got a course release. So I made sure that I had a diverse diverse experiences when it came to academia. 

Ellie: So don't focus on one. If you have a research position, that's wonderful. It probably pays more in some universities. But I would recommend that you try and get a variety of experiences that are relevant to academia, like teaching, like administrative work and all of those.  

Matt: That makes sense. So I'd like to maybe fast forward a little bit. 

Matt: What was it like to go on the academic job market?  

Ellie: Let me see. I have some notes. So the first challenge that international students might face and I did is managing the legal requirements for even being in the job market. And that can be done through international student services, but it takes time. 

Ellie: So it's important to be mindful of how much time you need to receive all of those work permits. And be able to start your job. So that is tricky to manage. So between the time that you start applying and the time that you apply for those for the legal paperwork. And if, like, when you get an offer and the date that you have to start the job, if your paperwork is not ready, that's going to be a challenge. 

Ellie: That is a timeline that you need to do a little bit of research on and manage it. Still, things can go wrong. The timelines may not exactly align. That is one challenge. What else did I have here? Interview skills. When I'm going to speak about my experience and my husband's experience a little bit. 

Ellie: I was in communication studies, so a lot of my verbal and nonverbal communication skills they improved. In the programs that I was, he was in an engineering program not a lot of speaking a lot of numbers and data. It's a challenge for international students to be deemed as smart and as capable in their field, if they can't express what they're thinking, if they can't really... 

Ellie: effectively promote themselves. And that can happen because of language barriers. It can happen because of the nonverbals that they are used to. What else do I have? And because of all of those behaviors that might be acceptable in one culture and not in another. So yes, we can go to interview training sessions. 

Ellie: The more people you practice with, it can really help. So one strategy that helped me with interviews was I talked to three of my professors, and they helped me prepare. They practiced with me the questions that they thought I should prepare for, and I should have ready to go responses for. 

Ellie: Don't practice with only your friends. Don't only go to training sessions for interviews, but also practice with different professors who ha who are at a different stage in their career. I practiced with someone who was new faculty, I practiced with someone who was my advisor, and someone who was not so new faculty, but someone from a diverse background like me. 

Ellie: And I also asked a couple of other faculty's experiences about interviews. So that really helped me. And I think for people in different fields, if you have the opportunity to find people that are already in that field, and talk to them about their interview experiences and see if they can practice with you, that can really help. 

Ellie: Manage the challenges of that international students might feel they're facing in interviews. I don't know if I answered your  

Matt: question. No, absolutely. I have some specific questions about the job market, if that's okay, if you don't mind sharing these numbers. How many jobs did you apply to? Do you remember? 

Ellie: I do. I hope this is not discouraging. I applied for one faculty job in 2020, which was starting in 21. And I was done with my comprehensive exams, so I was ABD. And the job call said that you can apply if you're ABD, if you think you're going to have the degree by the time that the job starts. 

Ellie: I only applied, I wasn't ready to apply for any jobs. I only applied because one of these people I mentioned that I practiced interviews with she saw the call and she thought I would be a very good fit. So she sent it to me and I immediately asked her if she would be comfortable writing a recommendation for me. 

Ellie: And she said, yes, so I only applied because I already asked her and I was too embarrassed not to apply because I and I got an I thought best case scenario, I will get an interview and that'll be practice. But surprisingly I got the job. It was not a research job. It was a four year university that also had a master's program in communication studies. 

Ellie: I had to relocate for that. So I got the job. It didn't pay nearly, so it paid as much as a postdoc. So very little money. I can share with you how much. Sure. So the university was in the Midwest and what they offered me was 55, 000. Which was what my husband made when he did a postdoc for one year. And the requirement was that I teach at three, four course load. 

Ellie: So yeah.  

Matt: That's amazing. You got the one job you applied to.  

Ellie: It was gratifying, then I didn't finish my P when they offered me the job, I told them that I may not finish by the time that I have to start the job, and they agreed, so that was fine. In my first year, I was at the National Communication Association one of the, I think, A chair of a department that was looking for professors, they were at my presentation, they came to me and told me about an opportunity, and told me to apply, and I was excited I was already feeling great, I got the first job that I applied to, and I thought I was gonna get that second job I applied, I didn't get that job and I was 85% sure that I was gonna get it, so I didn't get that one, then I think I applied for another job, which was also a teaching job. 

Ellie: I didn't get that one. And then I got this job. So four total applications, all of them for academic positions. One of them was an R1 university. The others were all teaching positions. So two out of four.  

Matt: I feel like that's a great track record.  

Ellie: But I understand this doesn't happen for everyone. 

Ellie: I think my husband had to apply for hundreds of jobs because he was applying to get a job in the industry. So for him, it was a little bit more difficult.  

Matt: Yeah. I just spoke with I think I just mentioned this earlier in our conversation. I, earlier today I was interviewing another professor and he applied for 85 jobs. 

Matt: And got one job offer and I feel like that's pretty close to average. Yeah. But yeah, whether academia or industry. I think that's  

Ellie: normal. Now one thing that I want to bring up as we talk about this is the tokenism that is going on in a lot of institutions, especially higher education institutions. 

Ellie: This is not something I like to talk about, but I have a feeling that me being from a different country and having all of that, so a lot of factors played a role in the fact that I got two jobs out of four. One of those factors was that I came from a diverse background which again is not easy for me to admit. 

Ellie: It worked to my advantage, but I would like to think that I, when you get a job, it's because you're highly qualified. Absolutely. Not because of the tokenism going on, because they want to advertise, hey, we brought in this diverse faculty member, and... Yeah. Yeah. So that is a part of  

Matt: it. Yeah. And I, I am by no means an expert in hiring and diversity or anything like that. 

Matt: Yeah. But... From what I've seen, I hear from people that it can cut both ways. I saw on LinkedIn, someone did a study where they made different versions of their resume. And in one, they had a ethnic non American sounding name. In another one they had an American sounding name and then they had something else and it was, they had pretty big differences in the kinds of callback they were receiving and clearly there was a preference for the more American sounding name and yeah, I don't have any I guess there's no take away from me on that. 

Matt: Yeah,  

Ellie: so the reason I mentioned that is that, oops, sorry. For some academic institutions, they there's a percentage of diverse faculty that they have to hire. So I think maybe that is something to consider as you're applying to jobs. Some of the jobs are advertised as exactly as that, that we're looking for someone with a diverse background or someone that can bring in new insights. 

Ellie: And those might be the jobs in which you have higher chances of getting hired.  

Matt: Absolutely. And honestly, I feel like in the super competitive academic job market. Any advantage is a helpful advantage. Speaking of your job, your current role now, is it fully teaching? Is it part teaching and research? 

Matt: It's fully teaching?  

Ellie: Yes, it's a college, so it's fully teaching. The requirement is so it's on quarter system, not semester. So there are three quarters and I'm required to teach three. courses each quarter. Research is not a requirement. The institution still provides some support for faculty that want to research like funding for conferences and data collection and softwares and that. 

Ellie: But it's not a requirement of getting your tenure.  

Matt: Very cool. If you don't mind sharing, do you want to stay like a hundred percent teaching or maybe in the future, have you thought about going to? Like a part research, part teaching professor job?  

Ellie: To be honest, I've thought about all kinds of paths. 

Ellie: Obviously with my research skills, if I get an industry job, I'd probably be making two, three times more than what I make as faculty. Yeah. So I have thought about that and the area where we are, there are a lot of tech companies. So one job that people, social scientists with research skills, qualitative and quantitative, they can apply for is UX researcher. 

Ellie: It's a very, I think, popular kind of job. All companies are hiring for UX researchers. Now, I don't know the chances of getting hired for that position for me, but I do know that a lot of my col my classmates, they have gotten jobs as UX researchers. So I've thought about a job that is in industry fully researched, but I also love teaching. 

Ellie: It's my passion. For me, it's important to stay in this area for family reasons. So if there are positions that include teaching and research and pay well I'm not opposed to applying. But one thing that I experienced in my previous job and this current job that I have, my current job pays more because of the area that we live in now. 

Ellie: But one difference is that in a more traditional style university, there are a lot of other responsibilities that are unpaid. So the service responsibilities are much higher. Yeah. So if I go to an R1 university. That anxiety to meet the research requirements every year that's gonna be there. 

Ellie: The requirements for service is gonna be there, and I do have to do service here too, but it's a smaller college, so it's not as much. And in a larger university, you probably don't have as much autonomy over what courses you teach. Every semester you have to teach what the department needs. But here at this college, a lot of the courses that are offered are like, I think there are like 10 or there are 12 total courses that are offered, but several of each. 

Ellie: So you get to select the modality, whether you want to teach online or in person, you get to select what courses. So you have all of that all of that choice. Which you probably wouldn't have in a larger university where you're competing with faculty who have been there and have been publishing for 20 years and... 

Matt: That's fun So I have a question that kind of goes back to tokenism I've heard people talk about that faculty with diverse backgrounds can often find themselves with extra service positions. Have you experienced that?  

Ellie: So yes, especially in my previous job and I didn't dislike that because it was my first year and I really wanted to be involved in everything and put my name out there and get to know everyone. 

Ellie: But yes, because you're one of the few with your experiences, a lot of the DEI committees may want you to be involved. A lot of the students who are doing work related to DEI may want you to, may want your help and your advice. And especially if you are new faculty, saying no is going to be difficult. 

Ellie: So you may feel not forced to, but you want to be involved, but also it's a lot of work that is unpaid. Yeah,  

Matt: was did they ever, was there ever a negotiation of maybe you could get a course release in exchange or was that maybe, probably not something they offered, of course?  

Ellie: No, not something that was offered. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Because  

Ellie: you don't get course releases for service. Yeah. Yeah.  

Matt: Yeah, I've I've heard. A number of stories about that and it it makes sense and it does seem to be a way that while diversity is celebrated, there's also like inequalities that are continuing.  

Ellie: And one other thing is that when you are a faculty of color or someone from a diverse background. 

Ellie: I don't know if it's my feeling or if that's what's really going on, but you're always I don't want to say it with these words you sound different. You may not be perceived as smart as your other colleagues. Your experiences are different again, as even when you get a job because of those different experiences, there is a lot that you're not going to know. 

Ellie: Especially if you are new in a department in which everyone has been there for quite a while. So it's intimidating to go to faculty who are more senior and ask them, Hey, what's going on? You already sound different. There's a lot you don't know. There is the gender component. So all of those may play a role in you feeling that you are being deemed as lesser than everybody else. 

Ellie: That's a challenge.  

Matt: Yeah. Do you have any, so I'm thinking there's probably a handful of listeners who are new faculty who come from a diverse background. Do you have any advice for folks who are starting their first job who may be confronting some of these things?  

Ellie: I'm still new as long as you don't voice what you think you, Your diverse background can sometimes put you at a disadvantage, but also it can give you insights that others really don't have. 

Ellie: It's challenging to speak up in a big meeting with people who have been there for a while, and they all sound the way they should sound within the system, and you're the only one who sounds different and comes from a different background. As long as you don't speak up you won't become a part of the system. 

Ellie: So if you have insights, gather all your courage and share, especially in those bigger meetings. You need to be visible and you need to be heard before you are taken seriously. And it's not easy. I'm just saying this a lot of times. I've had thoughts, but I've kept them to myself because a lot of meetings also now are on zoom. 

Ellie: So it's even more difficult to, gather yourself and use those emojis and speak up. But it's something that you have to do if you want to stay within that system. And also find your allies. There's always going to be someone or a group of colleagues that are more supportive. For a variety of reasons, it could be that they have worked with people like you, or they might themselves be from diverse backgrounds, or they might be new faculty also looking for collaboration opportunities. 

Ellie: So find your allies and build a stronger network because if you're like you're new and you're the only one like you and you don't build stronger workplace relationships, it's going to be also more difficult to speak up or to be included in different opportunities.  

Matt: That makes a lot of sense. So 

Matt: have we covered everything that you wanted to talk about today? Let me  

Ellie: take a look. 

Ellie: One thing that I had on my notes for being in the job market was on a lot of forms ethnicity is mentioned but like my own, I don't consider myself white. I know with a lot of like census and census companies I'm from Iran. And Middle Easterns are Considered white. I don't consider myself white. 

Ellie: A lot of forms may not include your ethnicity and race so you have to, you're forced to select white, and that might put you at an advantage or at a disadvantage. And I think those forms can say a lot about the company you're about to get into. So if the company does not have an inclusive culture I know sometimes we're desperate to get jobs regardless of what company we're getting into, and later we face toxic workplace but be careful when you're filling out those forms think about the forms more critically. 

Ellie: The actual form says a lot about the inclusivity of that workplace environment than an inclusive DEI statement on their website.  

Matt: Yeah, man, that feels so insightful. Before we start wrapping up, do you have any, any last tips or pieces of advice for newer international grad students or postdocs or faculty? 

Ellie: It's not easy to finish a graduate degree in a different system, different culture, different language. It's even more difficult to find a job that you like and that is relevant to your education. But a lot of people have done this before you, so it's possible. Don't get discouraged if you apply for hundreds or even thousands of jobs, I've heard. 

Ellie: And you don't even get an interview, work on your skills, work on your network. I know these are words that everybody says, but really work on them. Be a little bit braver, reach out to people, build a stronger network, hire mentors. If you have to hire coaches, if you have to, I know mentors, you don't have to pay. 

Ellie: So find mentors, find coaches, work on your CVS and work on your interview skills. Again, a lot of people have done this and you can do that too. It just may take work and time. Yeah.  

Matt: Yeah. Love that. Ellie so folks who want to follow along in their journey, they can follow on Instagram. They can find you on LinkedIn. 

Matt: Yeah. Okay. Then I'll, again, I'll have those in the description of this episode so folks can click there. What is one thing that you think all grad students should do or consider doing before they're done with grad school? Could be something fun, could be something professional.  

Ellie: Professional, definitely go to a conference. I know a lot of people already do but I know people that don't because of those financial restrictions. Yeah. So definitely go to a conference and if you can, go every year if your institution supports that. For fun I was lucky to have a great cohort. 

Ellie: So we planned a lot of cohort activities. I know not every program is built in a way that allows people to feel like a group but you can always be the person that creates that group within your program. So you can always Create Facebook events or, and it's okay if people don't all want to go, but having those activities with your cohort, those are memories that you're going to cherish for the rest of your life. 

Ellie: Like it could be as small as going for coffee or trying some new activities, sport, something. You don't have to do that every year. Oh, one thing that we did in my cohort was. The department had an award ceremony, but not everybody got an award. So we were a close knit cohort, we were lucky that we all liked each other. 

Ellie: So we had our own award ceremony and we printed these certificates and we gave we did a survey before and selected people for a title the kindest or the funniest or, yeah. So we had our own award ceremony for three years before COVID, so everybody got an award. And that was something that I think all of us will appreciate it and think of as a good memory. 

Ellie: So build a stronger relationship with your cohorts.  

Matt: Absolutely. I love that. Ellie, thank you so much for coming on the show and chatting with me. I cannot wait to share this with with all the listeners.  

Ellie: I appreciate it. Thank you for this  

Matt: opportunity. Absolutely, I look forward to talking with you in the future. 

Matt: Yeah, thanks!